tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post7126369081148804649..comments2024-01-31T15:10:55.111+00:00Comments on Transition Quaker: The death of Liberal Quakerism (and the birth of something new?)Craig Barnetthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16201061939693242954noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-15564528013620230942017-05-29T19:43:14.526+01:002017-05-29T19:43:14.526+01:00Thanks for a great article. The future of Quakeris...Thanks for a great article. The future of Quakerism is by no means certain, and we need to make it appeal to and work for people in the 21st century. My personal view is that the language of early Christianity is too obscure and inaccessible for modern-day people, and today we have a different language (for example that of psychology) that we should use. Also, the spiritual path isn't clearly mapped out in Quakerism, so work needs to be done on that. I'm of a very universalist bent, and feel that if we can sort out such issues, Quakerism has a lot to offer. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08827075835632341178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-72965851051714882952017-01-31T11:31:03.020+00:002017-01-31T11:31:03.020+00:00I feel excited about the changes happening, I feel...I feel excited about the changes happening, I feel called to testify to Christ working today. I am looking forward to Britain Yearly Meeting Gathering at Warwick. Quaker Renewal UK are having a gathering on Saturday April 22nd at 12 Noon at Lancaster meeting house and some of us are staying at Yealand Conyers for the night after. Another Quaker Renewal extended worship will be happening in July in an ancient forest in Golders Green. Those of faith please come and support this unfolding renewal with your bodily presence in worship. Meet we must, this is the way forward. Thank you Craig for your faithfulness, I am so appreciative. Hopefully we might have an impromptu Quaker Renewal UK extended worship session outdoors at BYM Warwick University too. Meet we must. We are listening for the leadings of the spirit in our renewal. Meet we must, tenderly with love and humility, open to the divine word in our hearts.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03875214007557756758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-18259829148549437012017-01-21T17:46:49.502+00:002017-01-21T17:46:49.502+00:00As part of my spiritual journey within Quakerism, ...As part of my spiritual journey within Quakerism, I feel strongly that the Quaker testimonies of Peace, Equality, Truth and Integrity, Simplicity and sustainability are more important in todays Society than they have ever been. I for one believe in Radical Quakerism - where these testimonies are constantly tested in our actions as Quakers within Society, where we can create non-violent collective experiences in society that demonstrate and support these testimonies. Kevin Piperhttps://www.facebook.com/kevin.piper1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-20650057123681090482017-01-21T15:26:12.644+00:002017-01-21T15:26:12.644+00:00Helen, thank you for this, especially the first it...Helen, thank you for this, especially the first item which really speaks to my experience. I have been to Meetings that made wonderful provision for children, who welcomed me with hearts, minds and Lego box prepared, but in the end the lack of provision for childcare was what made me leave our local Meeting. I had four young children; my husband was away during the week. I was shattered most of the time and eager for just an hour of peace, as well as spiritual nourishment. Our elderly Meeting had two volunteers who ran a children's Meeting once a month. It wasn't always easy to coincide with that Meeting. Then the meeting told me the two elderly women didn't feel up to continuing, and suggested we took on looking after our children in future. This would have meant my husband and I would never get to worship together, never be able to discuss the shared experience or both feel spiritually refreshed and one of us would have spent an hour driving to sit in a room and play with the children, something we could do at home. We were made to feel that they were our children, so childcare was our business. It was the end of our attempt to integrate our children into Quakerism, and I still have not, many years later, recovered the habit of regular attendance. Tighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04786331256157193919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-35868055672219559392017-01-21T14:21:00.191+00:002017-01-21T14:21:00.191+00:00Always interesting Craig but my frustration is wit...Always interesting Craig but my frustration is with an underlying premise that really we should all believe the same things. I think we need to embrace more fully those early words ... " Not that such a man walk in my path .... " Hoping Friends will know the reference. I think there's more scope for accepting and celebrating diversity, a witness the world is much in need of. Also personal spirituality and ministry valuable as well as growth of our communityJo Weedonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-23948614670136955272016-09-25T21:09:23.955+01:002016-09-25T21:09:23.955+01:00"Are we at such a transition moment today?&qu..."Are we at such a transition moment today?" Craig asks. <br /><br />"Probably" I would say, but it will be many years hence before we can say that with any certainty. My reasoning is that firstly bodies of people do not usually make such spiritual transitions as a body. They make it one person at a time - in other words this is something each of us as individuals have to do in our personal lives. Once we have a mass of people at the next stage, then it will become evident that "Quakers" have entered a new phase or era.<br /><br />You may wonder why I use the term "next stage"? It implies that we are headed somewhere quite definite and foreseeable. In broad terms I think we are. I would say most Quakers are now at state III in Scott Peck's "stages of faith", which he published in his books "The Different Drum". This can be found at http://whale.to/b/peck1.html or http://factnet.org/stages-spiritual-growth-m-scott-peck-abridged-richard-schwartz<br /><br />Scott Peck's stage III is characterised questioning, subjecting everything to scientific analysis and for some, going as far as outright atheism, while being strongly committed to social causes. Could be describing liberal Quakers to a T!<br /><br />Many Quakers are already at stage IV, of course. I think I moved from stage III to IV around 2000 to 2005, but its taken me some ten years to become clear about the transition. At the time, I had no idea what I was doing or where I was going. Its only with long hindsight that I can see the route I have taken. I hope many other Quakers will take the same path.<br /><br />One difficulty of making such a transition is that some choose not to make it. And thus we are likely to have meetings with a mix of people at very different stages, and perhaps no longer talking in terms that all can understand. We already have this problem where meetings have a mix of stage II and stage III people. I haven't experienced this myself, but I would hope that with enough love and patient listening its possible to co-exist with fruitful results.<br /><br />Another observation I would make is that the transition will be uncomfortable for many. The impetus to change can come from a deep dissatisfaction with the present state of things, and that is not an easy place to be. It can engender a feeling of lostness, of not fitting in, of having no home, maybe even resulting in depression for some individuals. And I can't say for most that it will be over quickly. For myself, the dryness, searching and wondering lasted at least five years. Part of my journey involved psychosynthesis counselling, as well as treatment for depression. It also coincided with a loss of my career through ill health. From the advantage of a "ten+ years later" I can look back and say these were all blessings in disguise.....but that doesn't make it easy to live through at the time!Richard Hankinsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-1714379266867896992016-06-08T22:43:47.793+01:002016-06-08T22:43:47.793+01:00I don't think I have seen any of you use the t...I don't think I have seen any of you use the term "Gospel" in your discourses on how to work toward spiritual renewal in the Society of Friends. Given the deep Christian roots of the Quaker tradition, I submit that refocusing on the Gospel is the right place to start from in seeking spiritual renewal. What does "Gospel" mean? This is a good question with which to start the dialogue! Bill Rushbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00579099372065932809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-35824848535000676382016-06-06T21:53:51.479+01:002016-06-06T21:53:51.479+01:00Meetings have become dominated by a caste of mutua...Meetings have become dominated by a caste of mutually supportive 'club members' for whom 'things are just fine as they are'. These 'insider', 'club members' are socially 'conservative' rather than ecumenically 'liberal' so the decline in attendance, attenders and membership has nothing to do with Quaker spiritual experience but rather what part the meeting house 'insider' 'club' has in fostering that experience. A good number of Quakers find 'insiders' have made them into 'outsiders' and so they have left. The same social phenomenon is emptying church pews. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-36566687315415477152014-07-09T21:44:53.232+01:002014-07-09T21:44:53.232+01:00Building on this, I notice Quakers in Britain tend...Building on this, I notice Quakers in Britain tend to ignore the Conservative Friends who live in Britain and (because...Conservative) don't belong to BYM. I'm thinking of those involved with http://plainquakers.org. They associate with Ohio Yearly Meeting because they need to reach all the way to Ohio to find an association of Friends who didn't go for the Liberal thing. <br /><br />But as Martin says, over here in the US we've got this convergent thing going on where all the branches are learning from each other, and hey, maybe one of these days we'll find a middle ground. Has there been any interest in BYM regarding reaching out to Britain's Conservative Friends to talk and worship together? Maybe invite some of them to Annual Sessions and see what can be learned from the more tradition-oriented Friends regarding that "shared understanding"?Mackenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03695808411116664337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-91484663067812267102013-11-29T21:14:30.051+00:002013-11-29T21:14:30.051+00:00Hear, hear. I have just one critical comment. I wo...Hear, hear. I have just one critical comment. I would prefer to say, "Friends who object to pandering to - perhaps being "manipulated by" - the hyper-developed sensitivities of other members should realize those other members are most definitely in the right religious community - one they especially need; one with the vitality to challenge them. Well, that is, if this community really has the vitality/leading to do so.. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13663290162287481171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-74895945327545031032013-11-02T22:11:53.696+00:002013-11-02T22:11:53.696+00:00Can I suggest something? At the risk of Quaker doi...Can I suggest something? At the risk of Quaker doing rather than being I would like to suggest that if Liberal Quakerism was formulated by writers such as John Wilhelm Rowntree it was probably Active Liberal Quakerism. In 1895 the United Kingdom still had many Quaker businesses (including Rowntrees) that were in effect 'proselytising' for Quakerism by showing Quaker concerns for Social Justice in an immediate, easily understandable and highly visible way. Quakers invested in the local community which gave them their wealth. <br /><br />We can build Social Enterprises again and we now have the opportunity to rebuild our reputation in UK banking by backing an unadulterated Quaker Bank http://thefriend.org/article/a-quaker-bank/ Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13645088973423153918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-1155776535389763052013-11-02T21:30:31.527+00:002013-11-02T21:30:31.527+00:00Kester - thanks for this. Rex Ambler is not promot...Kester - thanks for this. Rex Ambler is not promoting a return to a more 'traditional' theological language. I would describe it perhaps as existential and pragmatic. Here's a taster from 'The Quaker Way - a rediscovery':<br /><br />"The truth that really helps us, we have found, is not the kind that can easily be put into words, and it is therefore not easily formulated as a belief. It is, first of all, the truth of our own life. We have to look at it and accept it for ourselves. This is not easy, we know, because we are all wary of truth, in this direct, personal sense, and the temptation is to deny it, and therefore to pretend that our life is other than it really is. But if we do accept it, we find that the truth is liberating, and gives us a sense of our own true selves, free from all pretence. We are able to live more freely and fully as we most deeply wish to. We also become aware of the larger reality in which our life is set, the reality of our world, and finally, the ultimate reality which is the basis of everything, including our own life."<br /><br />If the idea of an emerging 'post-Liberal' Quakerism turns out to be correct, it certainly won't be a 'return' to any previous period of Quaker history, but the emergence of something genuinely new, that draws on the foundational insights of early Friends while reinterpreting them for the contemporary world, just as every other period has done.Craig Barnetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16201061939693242954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-4438146525762801352013-10-27T07:50:03.783+00:002013-10-27T07:50:03.783+00:00Hello Marcelle,
This is Gerry Guiton. Hope you ar...Hello Marcelle,<br /><br />This is Gerry Guiton. Hope you are well and thank you for your post here. I still remember our time at PH and the lovely extended M4Ws we had at various MHs in Philly. Homer says, Hi, too.<br /><br />Craig, have you seen my The Early Quakers and the 'Kingdom of God'? Inner Light Books published it in 2012. I'm finishing off a work on the Kingdom of God and modern Friends. I call the Kingdom, the Way. I think the Way is a central idea for Friends today. I'd like you to read it and offer suggestions and improvements. If you (Marcelle) or anyone on this blogsite want to do the same, pls feel free to contact me at: mgguiton@gmail.com. I'd appreciate your help. Many blessings, Gerry/GerardAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08959881534542495592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-57201569578293956682013-10-26T05:11:06.173+01:002013-10-26T05:11:06.173+01:00Hello Craig,
I'm glad to read this very i...Hello Craig,<br /> I'm glad to read this very interesting blog post and the conversation after it. <br /> I study and write about the beginning of the Quaker movement because I think it was more radical than subsequent historians have let us know, and I sense we have something important to learn from it. What we need most, however, even more than learning from Friends of the past, even more than learning from early Christians, even more than experiencing the divine Mystery in which we live, is to give ourselves over to it. A new movement is emerging. I hope and believe that the escalating crises of our time will wake humanity up to possibilities pointed toward by our early Friends, by early Christians, by Jesus, and by the most prophetic and inspired people of many traditions. <br />Marcelle Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01145301330059056577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-62435334555902165622013-10-20T02:42:56.444+01:002013-10-20T02:42:56.444+01:00Hello Craig,
I am reading this very helpful arti...Hello Craig, <br /><br />I am reading this very helpful article of yours at the same time that I am participating in a discussion on quakerquaker on Quietism (presented in a good and Divine light for a change, by Jim Wilson there in the post "The Heresy of Silence" and in subsequent discussion). I recommend this option for consideration too as we see and feel our way in the dark about how we are being led, going forward. I am sure we are not all being led one way! However, it speaks to my condition that in a time of all outward focus on social activism -- and for a tired, very tired, and very busy crew -- there may be some who turn toward the strange divine power found only when we simply STOP and be Quiet, with God. The action that only comes when we ourselves quit soo much. If anyone wants the link it's:<br />http://www.quakerquaker.org/profiles/blogs/the-heresy-of-silence?xg_source=activity<br /><br />Thank you for the lesson in Quaker history -- it is good to hear that Liberal Quaker has been around this long and that typically this is when such a thing becomes something new. <br /><br />in peace,<br />Olivia oliviahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04764832380830227799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-24314336157450827112013-10-19T19:43:18.480+01:002013-10-19T19:43:18.480+01:00This nontheist Friend has no difficulty in talking...This nontheist Friend has no difficulty in talking about discernment as seeking/finding the will of God. We know what that traditional language harbors in our tradition. It is relational in a way that our does us the kindness of exposing and challenging our narcissism; it directs us to a power that judges us for and leads us to justice, peace, mercy, and generosity. But we don't know what anyone has in mind when she speaks of "discernment": who is discerning what, what are the criteria, motivations, etc.? Such a nebulous concept invites, perhaps, delusion.<br /><br />From my perspective, we nontheist and other liberal Friends have a responsibility -- to ourselves, to other Friends living and dead, and to the broader world -- to open ourselves fully to traditional Quaker discourse, which can discomfort and thereby open our minds and hearts, rather than insist on replacing it with that of our generally all-too-comfortable and self-absorbed social classes. <br /><br />-- George Amoss<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-26612536205239084882013-10-19T19:01:54.897+01:002013-10-19T19:01:54.897+01:00Thank you for this thoughtful blog. It feels as if...Thank you for this thoughtful blog. It feels as if there is a change coming among Liberal Quakers in the U.S., though I'm not sure what it is. There seems to be greater comfort with traditional Christian language than there has been in the past 20 years. There seems to be more Bible study, more talk of "ministries," and in my particular meeting, a delving into the teachings of the first and second generations of Friends. I've noticed as well a growing, renewed interest in social justice among Evangelicals.Kevin-Douglas G. Olivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01177625525121541713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-88664617027186490802013-10-19T12:16:50.892+01:002013-10-19T12:16:50.892+01:00Yes. I like what you express here, especially abou...Yes. I like what you express here, especially about not getting caught in our Quaker ism. I am still a Quaker at the moment, because I think that as an ism it is a form which is still permeable by Spirit, and can therefore still do God's work. Some of this is happening in our small local meeting, but sometimes it feels like a lonely and uphill work to support and share in it, and it is so good to hear on this blog from others whose vision is closer to my own than most Quakers, that I meet.MaryShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10317260448956032369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-21857123174974190132013-10-18T19:28:26.282+01:002013-10-18T19:28:26.282+01:00I was a part of the Kindler's conference and a...I was a part of the Kindler's conference and am interested in the observations here. It seems to me that liberalism is a post-modern phase we go through on our way to somewhere else. It certainly shouldn't be an end in itself any more than evangelical or traditional phases. I see it as a big mistake to try to develop "Quakerism". We need a movement, An 'ism' is a stagnation. Whatever it is we refer to as 'God' is not a Quaker and is doing vastly more in the world than is encompassed by our tiny bit of it. We need a vision of what 'God' is doing in the world, not simply how we think we should box God into a Quaker format. I love Quakers, but would rather not be labelled as one, simply because I think God is so much bigger than that. <br /><br />Having said that, I think Quakers are in a wonderful position to fulfill a role as 'co-creators' with God in developing the spiritual community that is breaking free from doctrinal constraints and realizing an actual and embodied experience of 'the Divine'. It is that experience that many of those I met at the conference were thirsting for. Sadly, I think some of us felt the conference, good and inspiring though it was, missed the mark in this respect. Many of the dialogues in sessions were heavily orientated towards 'how to do' (which we Quakers are pretty good at) instead of 'how to be', which many of us are not.The Enablinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08387291227695045206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-80997830977223623902013-10-18T16:28:56.460+01:002013-10-18T16:28:56.460+01:00Very relevant to this week's ADR post: John Mi...Very relevant to <a href="http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/the-one-option-left.html" rel="nofollow">this week's ADR post</a>: John Michael Greer describes religion as the one kind of institution which has the power to respond in this kind of situation of economic deflation/energy crisis etc. I would love to see Friends responding to the challenge of these times. I'm interested to hear about the Anabaptist church planting group 'Urban expressions' -- they seem to be equipping mostly under-40yos who live mostly in troubled urban housing estates to support and resource each other for the journey of faith, and help with the shared troubles people are experiencing. <br /><br />There's much a humble & confident Quaker church could be doing -- from modelling frugality and food skills to nonviolent conflict resolution. I guess I might be drifting away from Quakers -- I mostly talk about think about God and Jesus. The Quaker tradition is full of riches for lives of christian service in a world where that is desperately needed. Many people are hungry, thirsty, and hurting, and yet there is a call that beckons everyone, and the whole earth community, into a restored wholeness. There's a power which I experience as being far beyond the narrowness of my self, which I think not only calls but which can fuel and equip us, day by day.<br /><br />I think first we have to know that power of that presence, and learn how to live from it, and to help each other stay in it. When we have the taste for that goodness, and live from it amongst the difficult circumstances of our times, we have something to offer the world again. Living water. But I'm not really encountering a shared understanding of that at Meeting. I have been learning this way and I am still going to Meeting, and hoping to encounter it there. I actually find it easier to talk the Quaker way with disenchanted and unattached ex-pentecostals I meet. I'm trying to look out for where God-beloved is moving, whether that's in Quakers or not.Alice Y.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16267449289432878102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-8530929328839700172013-10-17T19:34:46.261+01:002013-10-17T19:34:46.261+01:00Martin, I don't think that UK theology, as far...Martin, I don't think that UK theology, as far as Quakers are concerned, is a monoculture. It just happens that our relatively small numbers and wide geographical spread (if I can convince anyone in the US that the geography of Britain is wide) makes us seem so. All possible shades of Quakerism do crop up, but sheer lack of numbers prevents the 'critical mass' from ever becoming a movement in itself, nor indeed even show up as a deviation from the norm. What social media has shown me, is that Quakers in America have exactly the same issues as Quakers in the UK, but greater numbers of Friends, and better geographical concentration of Friends, makes the US look more theologically diverse.Ray Lovegrovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01741025951408554324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-63723711458644402212013-10-17T17:35:33.170+01:002013-10-17T17:35:33.170+01:00For me the issue is that of worship, a sense of th...For me the issue is that of worship, a sense of the transcendence as well as of immanence. I long for something deeper than simply nice people exchanging nice liberal attitudes. Something more holistic than intellectual uncertainty. Does this require us to go back to the Bible? - I'm not so sure, but it does demand that we understand our tradition even if there are parts there which no longer speak to us. How is the Holy Spirit speaking to and moving us today is the question. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15338198181654191167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-3942115814243654562013-10-17T16:48:25.162+01:002013-10-17T16:48:25.162+01:00I'm not sure that the 'problem' is nee...I'm not sure that the 'problem' is needing more clarity of language. I suspect that the 'problem' is saying that 'we welcome a diversity of beliefs' when that isn't actually true. If theological diversity was actually welcomed then we wouldn't be so afraid of talking to each other! My experience of building spiritual community is that the best foundation is learning how to really deeply listen to each other even when we disagree. If we want to explore spiritual experience and discernment more powerfully together then we have to first trust each other. That may involve us suspending judgement and embracing diversity even more than before.<br /><br />I do agree that there is a real energy around wanting deeper spiritual communities. Maybe this is an indicator of a new period of Quakerism. I just think that there are positive lessons to be learnt from all periods of Quaker history, including the most recent. I wouldn't want the positive elements of Liberal Quakerism to get lost in the process! My personal leading in this is to try to spend equal time talking to people who I disagree with as I agree with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-27271799935612069482013-10-17T16:28:51.599+01:002013-10-17T16:28:51.599+01:00"Nontheist Friends have difficulties talking ..."Nontheist Friends have difficulties talking about discernment as "finding the will of God". Can we phrase it in a way which is acceptable to Christians, Nontheists, and all the other theological positions to be found within our Yearly Meeting?"<br /><br />I want to suggest that these two sentences do not necessarily follow from one another, that there is a space in that "difficulty," not to rephrase but to reconsider. Not to reconsider the literalist sense of God we are often presented with as the only alternative to non-theism, but to reconsider what "finding the will" outside of ourselves, and considering what that will would look like, personified. Personally, I find a potential resolution to this question in the way we as a culture approach fiction. Others will presumably have other ways around it. But it's not semantics. There is a fundamental human response at question here: things shift when you place yourself in the position of asking what is needed, instead of deciding what is needed.natcasehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18058664776852941599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497531321890746707.post-89152251708387701232013-10-17T13:29:58.092+01:002013-10-17T13:29:58.092+01:00It is encouraging to hear Friends voicing perspect...It is encouraging to hear Friends voicing perspectives so resonant with my own. I don't hear much of this in my own AM but I have not yet given up hope of change, along the lines of what is being aired here. MaryShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10317260448956032369noreply@blogger.com